Torn - Color or Black and White?

Mickeyess · Apr 11, 2023

I really like this photo of the Mule Tender's barracks on the Delaware-Raritan Canal in Griggstown, New jersey. I like the color shot for its contrasting colors, subtle tones on the wall and overall character. As for the black and white version I like the way that the tonal qualities pop on the wall and the building's rear windows are brighter and clearer.
So, please let me know your opinions on this shot.
Thank you!
Mickey Simpson

20161127 5DM31833 Rharitan Canal Building Door MWS C Cr G V2.1 sm.jpg

20161127 5DM31833 Rharitan Canal Building Door MWS BW Cr G V2.1 sm.jpg

Papa Tango · Apr 24, 2023

This is a tough one. For me, the print style is dependent on the size of the image. I feel that the color version suits a large print, while the B&W calls for a smaller print, such as 13x19.

This said the color version has a lot more texture definition and nuance. The BW plays nicely with contrasty tones and a 'gritty' feel.

Both are solid and would work well, but my eyes are on the color...

Mickeyess · Apr 24, 2023

Papa Tango said:
This is a tough one. For me, the print style is dependent on the size of the image. I feel that the color version suits a large print, while the B&W calls for a smaller print, such as 13x19.

This said the color version has a lot more texture definition and nuance. The BW plays nicely with contrasty tones and a 'gritty' feel.

Both are solid and would work well, but my eyes are on the color...

Thanks Papa Tango!
I did print a 24" X 24" of the color version of this photo for a 32" X 32" frame. I also made a custom 500 piece puzzle of the color version. I had not seriously played with the black and white version until a few weeks ago just prior to posting this thread. Looking back at both versions I think I would agree with you about a large print of the color and a smaller print of the black and white. That said, I do love black and white!
Mick

Papa Tango · Apr 24, 2023

It's all about where one wants an image to play. Have you tried the mono in a Zone VI range, with subsequent shadow/highlight/level adjustments? That might be striking...

Mickeyess · Apr 24, 2023

Papa Tango said:
It's all about where one wants an image to play. Have you tried the mono in a Zone VI range, with subsequent shadow/highlight/level adjustments? That might be striking...

I'm not sure what Zone VI range is. I've adjusted shadow, highlights, contrast, and the black and white options / sliders when creating the black and white layer in photoshop.

NikoCarol · Apr 25, 2023

I love the 1st image...the colors are so inviting and warm. I think this should be printed large and hanging on the wall. Well done!
Carol

Mickeyess · Apr 25, 2023

Papa Tango said:
It's all about where one wants an image to play. Have you tried the mono in a Zone VI range, with subsequent shadow/highlight/level adjustments? That might be striking...

Ok. I looked up the zones and I do sometimes set the exposure + or - stops. I'm going to read up some more to get a good understanding of how I should assess this when shooting. I also will look at Photoshop's exposure slider as this seems to be the post methodology.
Thank you for your advice!

Mickeyess · Apr 25, 2023

NikoCarol said:
I love the 1st image...the colors are so inviting and warm. I think this should be printed large and hanging on the wall. Well done!
Carol

Thank you Carol.
It is large (24" X 24" in a 32" square pewter frame) and on my wall along with 60 to 70 others. I need more wall space!
Mick

Papa Tango · Apr 25, 2023

Mickey, the Zone System is/was a comprehensive system that began at setting the exposure, and ended with the print. This was the thrust of Ansel Adam's series 'The Camera', 'The Negative', and 'The Print.' Everything was a measure of setting what would be Zone V in metering, and exposing from that point. Then there would be N+ adjustments made during the negative development.

Zone V is nothing more than 'middle grey', and most light meters (external or in-camera) are weighted there. Fred Picker took this and suggested going one zone above, to adjust for limitations in the film, and in the silver print media. This helped beget the whole N+ development craze of the 80s and 90s. Somehow, adjusting the exposure +/- in a digital medium can mimic the effect, but risks blowing out highlights, or burying shadow detail.

In large-format film, it is brilliant. I used it to great effect in architectural documentation, with often less than stellar lighting conditions. Here is an example:

Search Results: "patrick thrush" - Prints & Photographs Online Catalog (Library of Congress)

The Prints and Photographs Online Catalog (PPOC) contains catalog records and digital images representing a rich cross-section of still pictures held by the Prints & Photographs Division and, in some cases, other units of the...

www.loc.gov

I was referencing the idea of adjusting the exposure to a Zone VI part of the image in post process--and then applying a number of contrast/detail enhancement filters or adjustments. My personal favorite comes from the Nik Collection, and is called "Bleach Bypass." Wonderfully adjustable, it delivers this sort of image:

Play with the idea as you see fit!

I have loaded an article about zone system metering that may be of interest:

How to Meter Using the Zone System

In some ways, large format is the easiest branch of photography to learn. After all, the camera only has a shutter button and an adjustable aperture ring. Simply compose, focus, and click...that's all there is to it! I'm only saying that...

fotofora.net

Mickeyess · Apr 25, 2023

Papa Tango said:
Mickey, the Zone System is/was a comprehensive system that began at setting the exposure, and ended with the print. This was the thrust of Ansel Adam's series 'The Camera', 'The Negative', and 'The Print.' Everything was a measure of setting what would be Zone V in metering, and exposing from that point. Then there would be N+ adjustments made during the negative development.

Zone V is nothing more than 'middle grey', and most light meters (external or in-camera) are weighted there. Fred Picker took this and suggested going one zone above, to adjust for limitations in the film, and in the silver print media. This helped beget the whole N+ development craze of the 80s and 90s. Somehow, adjusting the exposure +/- in a digital medium can mimic the effect, but risks blowing out highlights, or burying shadow detail.

In large-format film, it is brilliant. I used it to great effect in architectural documentation, with often less than stellar lighting conditions. Here is an example:

Search Results: "patrick thrush" - Prints & Photographs Online Catalog (Library of Congress)

The Prints and Photographs Online Catalog (PPOC) contains catalog records and digital images representing a rich cross-section of still pictures held by the Prints & Photographs Division and, in some cases, other units of the...

www.loc.gov

I was referencing the idea of adjusting the exposure to a Zone VI part of the image in post process--and then applying a number of contrast/detail enhancement filters or adjustments. My personal favorite comes from the Nik Collection, and is called "Bleach Bypass." Wonderfully adjustable, it delivers this sort of image:

View attachment 312

Play with the idea as you see fit!

I have loaded an article about zone system metering that may be of interest:

How to Meter Using the Zone System

In some ways, large format is the easiest branch of photography to learn. After all, the camera only has a shutter button and an adjustable aperture ring. Simply compose, focus, and click...that's all there is to it! I'm only saying that...

fotofora.net

This is a lot of great info Papa Tango and I will start going through it, albeit at this mid 70's old man's pace. I used to have the NIK collection and was just on the Dx0 site to look their products over. I have a very old copy of the NIK collection and liked it but I'm not sure it will run on Windows 11. Have you used any other Dx0 packages? Their film pack looks like it might be a great B&W tool.

I must thank you again!
Mick

Former Member 3 · Apr 30, 2023

Color. That’s where a lot of the life of the photo is. I’d give more depth (not more sharpness or more contrast) to the reflections in the door window. Those reflections work well with the textures and colors of the chipping walls but also could provide a little world-within-a-world, if my eye is invited just a bit more to travel through those reflected woods.

Former Member 3 · Apr 30, 2023

Overall, I’d say the contrast throughout may be a bit strong. The colors, textures, and reflections do a lot of the talking here and I think particularly the blacks created by the contrast in the entryway dirt and the strong red color of the ground and green of the door feel a little too baked to me. I’d be drawn in more by a slightly more subtle view of this. I see this as a pretty “realist” photo and think the boldness may be fighting that.

Mickeyess · Apr 30, 2023

samstevens said:
Color. That’s where a lot of the life of the photo is. I’d give more depth (not more sharpness or more contrast) to the reflections in the door window. Those reflections work well with the textures and colors of the chipping walls but also could provide a little world-within-a-world, if my eye is invited just a bit more to travel through those reflected woods.

Hi Sam.
Actually, there are no reflections on the door, what you see is the view out the back door of the Mule Tender's barracks.
Mick

Mickeyess · Apr 30, 2023

samstevens said:
Overall, I’d say the contrast throughout may be a bit strong. The colors, textures, and reflections do a lot of the talking here and I think particularly the blacks created by the contrast in the entryway dirt and the strong red color of the ground and green of the door feel a little too baked to me. I’d be drawn in more by a slightly more subtle view of this. I see this as a pretty “realist” photo and think the boldness may be fighting that.

Hi again Sam.
OK, I see what you mean about the colors being too baked, and that's an easy fix to get that more subtle look you suggest. I will try backing off of the colors and contrast a bit to see what I end up with.
Thanks Sam.
Mick

Former Member 3 · Apr 30, 2023

Mickeyess said:
Hi Sam.
Actually, there are no reflections on the door, what you see is the view out the back door of the Mule Tender's barracks.
Mick

Thanks for explaining that. My comment about the scene through the doorway still stands.

Mickeyess · May 2, 2023

samstevens said:
Thanks for explaining that. My comment about the scene through the doorway still stands.

Hi Sam.
I've been thinking about your comments about giving the scene in the doorway more depth. I'm not quite sure how to go about that. I've thought about creating a layer for that part of the image and increasing the brightness, but I'm not sure if that is what you were driving at. Got any suggestions for me?
Thanks Sam.
Mick

Former Member 3 · May 3, 2023

What I'm thinking is not calling more attention to it too overtly, but giving the eye more more reason to dwell on that feature of the photo. So I'd experiment around with brightness but only in moderation so it doesn't feel overdone. But before any overall brightness change to that area, I'd start with finding more depth, which can often be accomplished with the opening up of shadows. If you're in Photoshop or a similar software, I'd experiment with (or the equivalent of) shadows/highlights, curves, or levels (possibly raising the black point or midtown range a bit with the left and middle slider bars).

Mickeyess · May 3, 2023

samstevens said:
What I'm thinking is not calling more attention to it too overtly, but giving the eye more more reason to dwell on that feature of the photo. So I'd experiment around with brightness but only in moderation so it doesn't feel overdone. But before any overall brightness change to that area, I'd start with finding more depth, which can often be accomplished with the opening up of shadows. If you're in Photoshop or a similar software, I'd experiment with (or the equivalent of) shadows/highlights, curves, or levels (possibly raising the black point or midtown range a bit with the left and middle slider bars).

Thanks Sam.
I use Photoshop and will give your suggestions a whirl.
Mick

MarieH · Aug 8, 2023

The color is more interesting to me. My first impression, cheers!

Dracunculus · Nov 16, 2023

I prefer the color version - I like the contrast between pastel yellow and blue on the wall, particularly. I also think the yellow tone of the image-within-the-image is accentuated well by the yellow patches on the wall. Very nice image!